Starbucks banned at Bob Jones University

Dr. Steven Jones, President of Bob Jones University, announced today in chapel (the official "platform" of BJU) that we are not having Starbucks coffee ever, ever, EVER AGAIN at good ol' BJU... Know why?  Cup #43 in their "The Way I See It" line carries a quote from a gay person endorsing the gay lifestyle....

*cricket, cricket*

Okay, if I left it there people would most likely be saying stuff like "Of course, those bigots in their whited fundamentalist towers WOULD be doing stuff like that.  Yup, going off the deep end is BJ's specialty.  Gay quotes on coffee cups equals Starbucks mystically subverting young people's minds.  But BJ is doing that already, aren't they? Well, that explains why they'd want to get rid of the competition."

**Please notice the quotes there! I am playing the Devil's Advocate (and a very good one at that, I must admit. sounds really antagonistic, doesn't it?).  This does not in any way reflect the official opinion of anyone officially connected to the school.  That means me, zacfoo.**

So, you can probably guess what the topic of conversation at lunch today was.  You guessed it: music....

But, wait!  Wasn't that whole thing about "gayness" and "coffee" and "hypnotic powers" important enough for a conversation piece.  Sounds controversial to me.  And you know how college students love talking about controversy.

I should back up.  Dr. J went on to explain WHY we were doing that.  Back in September, "#43" caught people's eyes here at the Institution. Mr. President promptly wrote a letter to everybody in Starbucks corporate kindly asking for an easy explanation as to why they are selling such "potentially" offensive material especially when they have Christians, soccer moms, and good ol' fashioned-family values people consuming this stuff (coffee, and gayness to this one aspect) on a highly regular basis.  (I have no problems with drinking a lot of coffee, Starbucks or not, and paying for it too.)  They got back to him in November.  Yah, that late... Like they didn't care.  But the guy from Starbucks said they did care, that they were getting a lot of negative feedback from the paying public, and were talking about doing something about it after the Holidays.  He promised to call back in less than 2 weeks.  After 3 weeks of no contact with Starbucks, Dr. J sends a total of 8 emails/phone calls none of which are returned, answered, or apparently cared about.  The regional sales guy from our area even called the corporate dude and told him we were somebody to be reckoned with.  They still didn't care.

Thus, we don't have Starbucks anymore.  And I agree with the school on this one.  BJ was patient, kind, considerate, tactful, and concerned.  They were even humanitarian, reaching beyond the Bubble to remind Starbucks that other people shared in their displeasure.  But all to no avail, apparently.  Starbucks couldn't care less.

So, us lunchers talked about music instead...

Does Starbucks have an agenda?  I don't know, but this makes them suspect.

The whole thing is really ridiculous:  Starbucks has the whole world of books and authors and smart people to quote from on their cups.  But they choose to use a gay man (I'll give 'em that; homosexuals can truth too) and his gay-promoting quote (not good) to encourage English-speaking youth (people like me and younger; like, YOUR KIDS) to explore and experiment with gayness.  That is just plain wrong.

Sorry, Starbucks.  You are no longer my cup o' tea.  Even if you try to make up for it with a Rick Warren quote...

Comments

[Stephen]

Hmm...so what does the Snack Shop serve these days? BJ of U has "Papa Jones" pizza...will they now serve up hot cups of "Java Jones"?

[Jtaylor]

Stephen - I think the Java Jones thing is a superb idea! Maybe you should write a quick note to the other Stephen.

From a moral standpoint, I see no reason to suspect that SBX is doing anything other than what they claim to be doing: provoking discussions. As for the topic, what do you expect from a secular company?

From the perspective of customer service, I agree - axe them...though that could be perceived as a bit precipitous.

[Scott]

BJU and tactful should never be used in the same sentence.

1990 BJU Grad!
-Scott

[G Golem]

One quote and you're boycotting the company? What a pussy you are!

[G Golem]

You read Greek? Ever read the Symposium?

It is reguarded as shameful by the Ionians and many
others under foreign domination. It is sahameful to
barbarians because of their despotic governments, just
as philosophy and athletics are, since it is apparently
not in the best interest of such rulers to have great
ideas engendered in their subjects, or powerful
friendships or physical unions, all of which love
is particularly apt to produce. Our own tyrants
learned this lesson through bitter experience,
when the love between Aristogiton and Harmodius*
grew so strong that it shattered their power.
Whererever, therefore, it has been established that
it is shameful to be involved in homosexual
relationships, this is due to evil on the part of the
legislators, to despotism on the part of the rulers,
and to cowardice on the part of the governed.

*Aristogiton and Harmodius plotted to assassinate the
sixth-century tyrant Hippias when he attempted to come
between them. Their plot failed but it inspired universal
admiration among later Greeks, many of whom attributed the
founding of the athenian democracy to their efforts.

[Slippery Pete]

Of course any bigot (or bigoted institution) may choose to not to do business with another institution deemed too tolerate and accepting of other people.

Nevertheless, let's be clear. It IS bigotry, and you ARE endorsing it.

You suggestion that the quote "promotes" homosexuality is, of course, absurd. Nobody chooses to be gay, and nobody chooses to be straight. I certainly never had to think about such a non-decision - did you? Please share your experience.

Bob Jones University, as everybody knows, was and is a racist institution, although very recently its racism is a little more sophisticated and subtle. But it's no coincidence that a so-called university that once fussed over miscegenation and even interracial dating would soon find another despised minority to assualt with equal enthusiasm. Just don't make the mistaking of imagining that one is different from the other.

PS: For a blog promising "spouts of wisdom" (beg pardon?), you're not off to a good start. "Verbage" isn't a word, smart man.

[R. Meek]

My goodness, "encouraging" you to experiment with gayness. Are you having a hard time not giving in?

I'm afraid my reading of the quote is not nearly as paranoid as yours, young man. I would loosely interprete it as "don't let others bully you into loving anyone other than who you want to love". Maupin does say it much better, which is why he's a famous writer and I'm a zoologist.

I've never really understood why religous fundalmentalist are so obsessed with sex. As for gay sex, as Whitman once observed, if it occurs in nature it is my definition "natural". As a zoologist I can assure you it occurs in nature, more than you want to think. For myself, never tried it, men just don't "do" it for me.

Relax. Have a cup of overpriced coffee.

[R Scarberry]

I remember many things said from that "official platform" during my single year as BJU student in 1978-79. When congress extended the ERA ratification deadline, Dr. Bob Jones, III, lamenting the end of democracy in America, had the flags flown at half mast. This just happened to coincide with the death of John Paul I. Some folks found the resulting confusion amusing.

A few months later Bob Jones, Junior announced to a shocked chapel audience that he sincerely hoped that John Paul II would quickly die. This would open the eyes of multitudes of deceived Catholics, he said. He also went on that, according to his "sources", John Paul I had been poisoned... He didn't elaborate further on his sources. I suppose he didn't want to blow their cover.

I also remember on at least one occasion Dr. Bob III ranting about interracial marriage being unscriptural. However, when interviewed by Larry King in 2000, he emphatically stated that he had never argued that interracial marriage was unscriptural. Shame, shame Dr. Jones. The ten commandments says nothing about interracial dating, but I do believe it mentions something about lying.

[zacfoo]

Question: has anyone actually READ my article. I think I was very clear about the problem NOT being about gayness, but about poor customer service. That is why Starbucks is no longer on the menu at the Snack Shop.

Note: The cups in question were never used in the BJU Snack Shop. Only the generic "you are about to consume really good coffee" cups were used.

And for all those who wish to use my comment list as an opportunity to hurl their poop at BJU, I ask that you kindly stop. We are not bigoted as you would wish to call us. We simply operate from a perspective that some cannot comprehend: that there are absolutes in this world and that the Bible is the guidebook for living.

[zacfoo]

Slippery Pete, I would like to address you. You're very funny. You don't make much sense, but you are very funny. I like your Ad Hominem arguments, especially in your last paragraph. Also, you argue for arguing's sake very well.

"Verbage" is a word. We call it jargon. It is a literary device used to make fun of the author. It is a pejorative use of a word meaning wordiness. Hence, I don't take myself too seriously.

You probably shouldn't either...

[Dana Kincaid]

You wrote in my blog,

"Baylor took the lead. BJU took Starbucks off the menu because of poor customer service, not because we didn't like the gay quote. We didn't even use the cups in question."

Zacfoo, that isn't what your blog said... Also, and forgive me for being blunt, I doubt that the President of BJU would say, "No more Starbucks", in chapel instead of in a general posting, if it wasn't about the quote.

You believe, "Does Starbucks have an agenda? I don't know, but this makes them suspect."

You believe, "...we were somebody to be reckoned with. They still didn't care."

BJU is not a force to be reckoned with because BJI has become a laughing stock, just like the dweebs over at Traditional Values Coalition who think, "Shrek Threatens Family Values". Just because BJU wants some saying off a cup doesn't mean it HAS to happen. Maybe though if we put more Bushisms on cups there y'all would be happier? Does, "poor customer service" mean now kowtowing to televangelists? I suppose it could...

Of course BJU can do and be whatever they want. This is a free country.

Unfortunately many Christianists only want Their version of a free country, just like the islamofascists want us all under Islamic law.

[Dana Kincaid]

PS - "We simply operate from a perspective that some cannot comprehend: that there are absolutes in this world and that the Bible is the guidebook for living."

That is arrogance, child. I was involved in church and school long before you were born.

I understand perfectly you POV though, I used to share it. I went to Heritage Christian in Indianapolis, and Christian Academy before that. I could have gone to BJU as I said before, but I'm glad I did not. The Bible is an interpretation by man of God's Word. It has flaws, it has mistakes and contradictions. It took me almost twenty years to come to terms with that reality, and the reality that not everyone is going to hell just because they aren't agreeing with a Baptist world view. I'm sorry, but the Southern Baptist Convention does not speak for God. God can, and has spoken for God and is quite capable of doing so again without people like James Dobson, the Bushes, Roves, Limbaughs, Republican Party (et all) or the elders at BJU being God's mouthpiece.

Dana
http://www.angrytoyrobot.blogspot.com

[zacfoo]

i still think that i was clear in my original post that we dropped Starbucks because they didn't care about our concerns. Concerns about the validity of using potentially offensive material in their merchandise. They didn't care. They didn't have good customer service.

Dr. Jones addressed the issue in chapel precisely because if it were announced via general posting many people would go away with the idea that BJU is being bigoted once again. He clearly explained the school's concerns (mentioned above) and told of how Starbucks blew us off. Okay, he says, I guess if you're not gonna be helpful we don't need your coffee. So we got rid of it. feel free to check the transcript of the chapel service in question. The date was January 31, 2006.

This is not a ban. Yah, I know I said that in the title to the post, but we aren't boycotting Starbucks or anything. We just have banned the sale of Starbucks coffee products in the coffee area of the Snack Shop. We went with a different supplier. In fact, I just had a marble mocha macchiato tonight. not at BJU, mind you, but at a Barnes and Noble. I don't have a problem with them, I liked that drink tonight. it was good.

And as for us being "a force to be reckoned with"... simply rhetoric. That was simply my phraseology, not a statement on BJU's falsely reputed tenacity in getting their way no matter what. I'm sorry if it was misleading.

And BJU doesn't want that saying off the cup. Dr. Jones intimated that he just wanted to know what the reasoning was for selling that particular cup. Was there a beneficial purpose in its inclusion in the line of quotes?

Ma'am, I'm sorry but I am NOT arrogant in asserting that God's way is the only way. Jesus himself says the same thing: "I am the way" (John 14:6). Definite statement, no way around it. Try as you might to disprove the infallibility of the Bible, you have no way of being 100% sure of it's NOT being 100% true. (A scary position to be in: what if the Bible was right all along?) This is something you must accept by faith: going beyond humanity's limited perspective and understanding of God's ways into the realm of trusting the way God sees and orders things. I have nothing left to believe in if I don't believe the Bible. I'm sorry, I will hold on to that till the day I die.

BTW, I'm not a child. Don't mistake age for maturity, either yours or mine. Our difference in age doesn't make a difference in our understanding of the issue at hand. Worldview does. Please refrain in the future from dangling that before anyone. It does not stand up in the light of scrutiny.

[Lesley]

Is it any wonder that this country is going right down the toilet? The GOP and the right-wing Christianist fanatics brain wash the young and turn them into one-note wonders. The kindest thing that I can say to you is that your lack of knowledge is laughable. My advice to you, oh foolish and naive boy? It's just a cup. If your faith is tested by words on a cup, then your faith is shit.

Me? I'm holding out for the cup that quotes Bruce Villanch, "Jesus, save me from your myopic, bigoted and misguided followers."

[zacfoo]

okay, i asked that you stop. please, if you wish to hurl insults i ask that they at least have some validity.

Lesley, dear. I'm sorry you have been so jaded in the past. If you cared enough to explain why you think i'm foolish and naive I might take it to heart and consider in which areas i'm naive and being foolish. but since you simply called me names without any provocation, I'm content to move on.

Why do you call yourself tolerant if you are intolerant of those who don't agree with you? I'm amazed at how so many people resort to name-calling to make up for their lack of legitimate argument.

[allen]

"And BJU doesn't want that saying off the cup. Dr. Jones intimated that he just wanted to know what the reasoning was for selling that particular cup. Was there a beneficial purpose in its inclusion in the line of quotes?"

Believing the above is what is naive, zacfoo. This is not about customer service, and everyone can see that.

"Why do you call yourself tolerant if you are intolerant of those who don't agree with you?"

Being intolerant of intolerance is not the moral equivalent of being intolerant, zacfoo.

[Jonathan]

Hi folks,
Zacfoo clearly defended/clarified that his post said (or at least he meant to say) that BJU dropped SBX solely for customer service reasons. Nevertheless, whether you think Zacfoo said so or not, it’s true. Like Zacfoo, I suggest you read the transcript.

It seems that you're just looking for a reason to rant and that you're willing to overlook the facts so you can beat-up a straw man - brilliant. If you want to blindly believe that BJU is bigoted - as you pointed out, it’s a free country. But find something factual and go after that.

[Jonathan]

Sorry for the consecutive posts, but I have a question for Allen: if being intolerant of intolerance isn't intolerant, then what is it? Your logic is, well, illogical.

[Woodrow Jarvis Hill]

For myself, the issue, zacfoo is more that you take Dr. Jones on his word that the BJU dismissal of Starbucks is a Customer Service issue. And you know, of course, that it is your right to do so, as well as BJU's right to dismiss them.
I don't question your word, nor the transcript. What I do question is the motivation. I simply have had different experiences with the BJU facility over the years, and with allied organizations. Those experience have led me, for one, to strongly question this dismissal by Dr. Jones and the BJU facility over a lack of response to a question in a, what, 2-3 month timeframe? Indeed, if the cups were not in use in the facility in question, why would there be a question of such criticality to begin with?

To my mind, you say it yourself, to some extent, at the end of your piece:

"Starbucks has the whole world of books and authors and smart people to quote from on their cups. But they choose to use a gay man (I'll give 'em that; homosexuals can truth too) and his gay-promoting quote (not good) to encourage English-speaking youth (people like me and younger; like, YOUR KIDS) to explore and experiment with gayness. That is just plain wrong."

Understand: I firmly believe that's your belief, unvarnished, unbrainwashed. I've known enough BJU students and grads to know they are not robots, or cult people. Moreover, I believe a similar belief is why Dr. Jones* contacted Starbucks. And that's where my belief that Dr. Jones is speaking exclusively about customer service fails. I strongly think -- and, of course, cannot prove -- that there was a thought that BJU did not want to be particularly associated with a company that "promoted homosexuality".

One last thing, then I'm going to call it a comment:

You're correct, zacfoo, that age can oftentimes have squat-all to do with knowledge and/or wisdom. And "tolerance" is a weird word, at best, these days. And -- again, just to me -- it's a process to recognize what to tolerate, and what is morally unacceptable. Paul worked through it, for one example that came to me recently.

Even though I might disagree with your opinion, I try to push past just tolerance, into discussion and understanding. To me, those are far, far more important than merely "tolerating" someone else's opinion, faith, and lifestyle.

* As a total side note, I LOVE saying "Dr. Jones", even if I do wonder what Indiana's doing teaching at BJU every time I write it...

[Chris Zachary]

What a sad and insular world BJU must be.

Unable to foster faith without denying the amazing diversity of humankind.

Unwilling to accept outside persepctives without feeling threatened and unfortunate enough to feel that this is a real university.

A place that is meant to be a marketplace of ideas. A monopoly is not a marketplace.

When the questions are inauthentic do the answers really count?

Reading a quote from Maupin and unsderstanding its meaning is no more akin to approval of homosexuality than studying Handel's Messiah is an acceptance of Jesus Christ.

You folks would all do well working in the Bush White House. Contrary opinions and new views of the world need not apply at your school.

(and PLEASE DON'T SCREACH AGAIN ABOUT NOT READING THE ARTICLE...IT'S ABOUT CUSTOMER SERVICE NOT SEXUALITY..YA DA YA DA YA DA ..." But they choose to use a gay man (I'll give 'em that; homosexuals can truth too) and his gay-promoting quote (not good) to encourage...(ibid)

[Dana Kincaid]

No, it isn't a sad place. Insular, yes. Fixated on one idea to the exclusion of all others in a way that isn't demeaning to all other ideas, perhaps.

Christian schools and colleges are not unhappy places. In fact I think you would probably find more happy students, intelligent, well educated, well adjusted than in most colleges. One has to wonder though how well kidz that graduate a Christian High School and go str8 to BJU and then graduate BJU are suited to real world jobs and situations. Spending twenty-five years in one mode and belief structure could be said to lead to a culture shock on the outside, but I'll bet the shock isn't as bad as it used to be.

For example, the pastor of the local gay church, Jesus MCC in Indy (http://www.jesusmcc.org/index.html) went to BJU!

However, Stepford was a happy place too... Humans don't have a good middle ground between absolute belief and absolute scepticism as yet, unfortunately.

[Dana Kincaid]

This was recommended to me...

"A New Kind of Christian"

A New Kind of Christian: A Tale of Two Friends on a Spiritual Journey -

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/078795599X/102-0705066-8228967?v=glance&n=283155

By the way, our Indianapolis Jesus MCC church is apparently doing quite well, and I have also, as next door neighbors, a gay Episcopal priest and his long time companion. Christianity is more complex than the Pat Robertsons and James Dobsons would like you to believe.

Christianity needs to get away from the Republican, neocon, knee-jerk super capitalist position it has gotten to.

Remember, there are eleven commandments, not ten.

Dana
http://www.angrytoyrobot.blogspot.com

[Jonathan]

Dana - you should be careful...some of your comments might actually be interpreted as something of a compliment to Christian universities. By the way, I agree with you that Christianity is not synonymous with neocons or Republicans.

As for the shock we face once we enter the 'real world,' no one who attends BJU lives in a vacuum...not even while they're physically at BJU. Further, most of my friends work for the Big Four accounting firms & I worked in finance before leaving for the LSE - a top ranked university w/an ideology on par with Berkeley.

Finally, to your last point: I agree, what many refer to as Christianity (though it isn't) is larger than Pat Robertson et al (I can't stand that crowd). But BJU stands for a Christianity that takes the Bible literally & uses the Scriptures as its only standard for right & wrong.

Its in that kind of Christianity that we love gays, Catholics, Muslims, mass murderers, etc., but we call what they do sin (because the Bible says so). Further, we insist that if they don't believe in the Gospel - as the only way to salvation - then they're going to spend an eternity in an actual hell. Our Christianity is not bigoted or racist, but it is based on moral absolutes.

[Dana Kincaid]

Hello Jonathan. "Further, we insist that if they don't believe in the Gospel - as the only way to salvation - then they're going to spend an eternity in an actual hell."

Which gospel, in which version of the Bible? At Heritage Christian they accepted the King James version and as I recall, that was it. BJU does the same thing, right? However, once you accept the KJV as the only correct version, you have to ask

1) Who did Cain marry? Genesis 4
2) How exactly did King Saul die? Was it 1 Samuel, chapter 31, or 2 Samuel, chapter 1?
3) If it was ok (nobody cursed him) for Lot to sleep with his daughters in Genesis 19, then does God really care who you sleep with? By the way, don't tell me the old man was completely asleep, we know he was faking it.
4) The book of Revelations is a complete mess, but evangelicals have made it their BIG THING, the boogeyman to keep people in line.
http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/rapture.htm

If Christians really believe in the rapture then...
We should care enough about others not to fly planes, be surgeons, drive cars, drive heavy machinery, be in front line military positions, operate atomic reactors, you get the picture. If Christians REALLY believe and care about their fellow men then we should care enough not to chance doing something that will get others killed when we vanish into thin air, people that would of course then go str8 to hell or whatever.

5) ... You get the picture. AND if you say you only base your religion on the New Testament, then you need to throw out the Commandments (except for the 11th one) and stop telling people that Sodom was blown up because of homosexuals leaving out all those little incest and other things that the str8 people do in the Old Testament.

Don't forget, you should be stoned if you talk back to your parents! ;-)

[Jonathan]

Dana - you have some legitimate questions. If you're serious about getting answers then let's move the discussion to either my blog or yours, if you would prefer. At the moment, we're a little off topic and poor Zacfoo’s comments section is already quite long.

BJU quietly switched suppliers. They neither banned Starbucks from campus nor did they call for a boycott. Thus, this is not an example of BJU trying to throw its weight around or ‘throwing a tantrum’ because it didn’t get its way.

Further, their decision was not based on racism, bigotry or any other such thing. BJU has been quite clear that it cares for/loves gays, Catholics, Muslims, etc., but BJU calls what these people do or believe sin/wrong based solely on the Scriptures.

The real issue is that you have a problem with what the Scriptures (& thus God himself) say. So, if you want to argue about the validity or consistency of the Christian faith, then let me know when and where. But don't attack BJU as an unreasonable bigoted institution - its just not the truth.